Batteries aren't the only way to store energy. Here's another. technology connections heat pump

by autisticchiaNGMAI



“Reduce emissions and save the grid with this one weird trick!!!”
-Confucius

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Batteries aren't the only way to store energy. Here's another.

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Batteries aren't the only way to store energy. Here's another.
technology connections heat pump
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50 comments

Technology Connections 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Hey! I realized that I pretty much only talked about the residential side of things and left some of the tactics commercial buildings use until the very end. Well, here’s me now saying that this is by no means something we can’t apply wherever it would work. In fact, many commercial buildings are doing pre-cooling already when it makes sense for them. None of the ideas presented here are new, exactly.

But I do think there’s a lot of potential here specifically when it comes to getting use out of renewables. “Make hay while the sun is shining” is a perfect expression, here. In some areas we’re already running into issues where there’s so much solar capacity that we can’t use it all. Rather than wait until we have more electrochemical batteries at our disposal, perhaps we can use all this thermal mass we have.

The key thing about insulation is that it slows the transfer of heat. That means it buys you time. The challenge of renewables has always been that the time of production doesn’t match the time of consumption, but with more intelligent control and awareness of a building’s thermal capacity, ability to pre-heat and pre-cool, and the tolerances of its occupants we have a pretty flexible tool for shifting consumption right now.

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salty roe 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

My 1929 house is designed to draft and is reasonably cool most of the time. Heat is from a "gravity natural gas furnace which has no fans and thus costs me less than forced air systems or heat pumps.

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fightingblind 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Unfortunately my definition of comfortable and my roommates definition of comfortable are extremely different, so the thermostat is constantly being adjusted…

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John Rogers 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Brilliant thinking! Well done. You need a heat pump hot water system in your basement.

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PillsWontHelpYouNow 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Sorry I kinda got distracted while you were talking. You said "load bearing" electronics, right? As in you use them as a capacitor? An optional switch could be added to anything with a circuit board (disconnecting the output from the clock generator) turning it into a capacitor/clock generator.

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Elizabeth Fletcher 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I live where it is 100 in the daytime and it used to be about 55F at night. I surrounded my house with a 2 German Shepherd moat and simply opened up the windows at night and closed them just before sunrise. The only annoyance is getting up just before sunrise. The house temperature never got over 75 over the course of the day. I have 5” of foam insulation (2 more than needed) and use double 3/8” cellular shades on my windows. I have a 3 season porch on the south side with 270 degrees of windows with the cellular shades. The porch will get up to 80 or so. During the 2021 PNW heat dome, at 117, the house rose to 85 (I had shaded the west windows with plywood). Unfortunately, climate change has caused me to invest in a mini- split for both my house and workshop, so I was planning to do as you suggest, that is, be strategic about when I cool the house. I have a solar array but am still connected to the grid. I make just enough electricity to make it to rezero day in March. I am having quite a time trying to figure out when to store cooling. When it is colder already at night but when it will use grid power or During the early morning after the sun is up? I sure miss those cool nights. Ok I am sniveling. The hot summer nights are around 70F and dry as a bone. I have to run a dehumidifier in my house during the winter because it is so tight, and wipe down all the windows every morning to keep the algae growth down. Stuff even freezes to the windows. That is a free dehumidifier but I still have to dry the towels. Sure enjoyed your talk.

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John Coops 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Like what? 5 cents, 10 cents per kWh – WOW
We are paying about 30 cents flat rate 24/7 PLUS service charges here in Sydney Australia.

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Wes Johnston 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I just gotta add something. We live in an ICF house in central South Carolina. 4800sq feet with a full basement and a massive slab. The heatpump condenser tripped it's breaker on Aug 30 (I have a power meter with several current sensors on it) and we never noticed. Until last week when the house dropped from 73F to 71F. For four months, the internal fan moved air thru our ducts within the house with no heat or cooling added. The only reason I noticed it was that it dawned on me that the fan was running full speed due to the 2degree temperature deviation. Thermal mass rocks!! Previously I had noted that when we got a cold snap the house took about 1-1/2 to 2 days to change the rhythm of the heat pump. If you ever wondered if you should build an ICF house, this is a darned good reason.

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Just a Bird 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Of course a utility could utilize this to the full extent, and even do a much better job at keeping people comfortable than those people can do themselves. But at the end of the day, utilities are also run by mere humans.

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Joseph Tutor 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Hi, I think somebody should suggest using a "very" large diameter flat concrete flywheel as a means of power grid storage. I mean, really large. This way, it doesn’t have to spin very fast at all. It should pretty much float on magnetic repulsion. Then, hollow roller bearings that are somewhat compressible so they can run dry as backups. The main stabilizing bearings surround a fairly small vertical shaft. They should merely be present because without them the magnet would shoot off to the side and flip over and stick to the base magnet. The vertical shaft and bearings don’t have to be very big at all. Lifting concrete, is fine but is more suitable for long term storage. With solar you pretty much use the power stored the following night so a flywheel the size of a football field, but only 6 feet tall, would be cheaper and be maintenance free. Lifting concrete requires a whole lot of cables, rigging, electric motors, operators, downtime, and maintenance. A huge cheap ceramic magnet will work fine. It doesn’t have to be concrete either. It can be mud, water, dirt , or limestone. Just about anything that weighs. I am suggesting this because out of "ALL" the cheap effective energy storage systems I’ve ever seen or heard of, lifting concrete is the more efficient. But, the flywheel design is, leaps and bounds, EVEN BETTER! I hope someone qualified hears of this and recognizes it as significant. I’d feel better just knowing that I contributed "something" to our maturing world. Actually, instead of concrete for the flywheel, water might be better for many reasons. Centrifugal force can draw it upward into the flywheel, but it can drain by centrifugal force when and/or if necessary. Peace.

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Jass&OtherStuff 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Shutting electric power off for an hour or two in inconvenient. In Corpus Christi we lost power for over a week. Fortunately we have a Kohler generator which runs on natural gas. We also supplied some power to a neighbor.

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L H 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

It's not that long ago people were harvesting ice as a form of energy storage.

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MitchOfCanada 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Massive heatsink in your basement, cool basement floor way down at night – Rip your carpet out and use tile or laminate flooring, and put a box fan in attic hatch to push hot air out of the house. works great.
My basement has pellet stove for winter while heating the concrete floor down here for 6 months.

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MitchOfCanada 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

what is your KWh useage per month? No AC here im $0.20 kwh in canada and about 700-900kwhs.
300-400watt 24/7 for servers.

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when the hood drops 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

We should make more things 240v in the USA to make our load on the grid less

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Rose Juliette 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Socialism for electricity usage. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. If you can adjust your usage to benefit everyone then you should do so. This shouldn't be done in a way that impacts the your energy needs but a couple degrees isn't a need it's a want. Overall doing this could drastically reduce overall energy consumption which in turn reduces environmental impact.

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Emerald Queen 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

The SNOWPOCOLYPS was in 2020… not 2021 (speaking as a Texan who HATED THE COLD when the power went out as ALL the heat in our house, except for our fireplace, is electric

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Dukefazon 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I really like this idea! But good luck explaining this to all of the customers. Clickbait scare sites will keep pumping out those articles so you will be fighting a windmill fight…

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ZZCopter 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

1. 19 degree celcius is not cold
2. if you have 21 Celcius at night it is enough to open the windows at night, dont need no AC at all as long it stays below 32 at day
3. be carefull with those spot prices, they have fooled us here in Europe/Norway many years that this will be cheaper and now we are getting pressed out as lemons.
Last summer te price of a kWh was down to almost nothing, as low as 0,02 NOK. Now the spotprices have gone up to 4 or 5 NOK in some hours and even i the "better" hours it is much more then 1 NOK.

And here we are not talking about wunderfull warm 19 degrees celcius, it is more about the same in minus ouside. People have to heat up their homes with electricity, as there is often no alternative. Many people have now power bills over 2000, 3000 or even more NOK (200, 300 Euros) in a single month. Last january it was about minus 20 the whole month, my house was bad isolated, the bill was almost 5000 NOK for that month. And I woke up with about 8 degrees celcius in the morning (that is cold ;-))

I have changed to fixed price for one year in late August and it was the right thing to do, even as the price looked a little high with 0,45 NOK at that time. Now I am lucky to have done so.

The house is not fully iosolated, but I have come a way towars the goal and you can feel the difference. Untill now it was not less then 16 degees in the mornng, even at 17 minus outside

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Loveandlight 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Oh I like this. I use to have a whole house fan…. But we lived in a drier environment then. This would work in humid summers though.

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Steven 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Screw the neighbor, I'm hot now.

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John Doe 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

how exactly is this storing energy? Seems more like spreading the demand?

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Seda Nelle 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

The people in TX on the plan you're on are the ones who got $7K electric bills for the 20 minutes of power they got in the middle of the 6 day "rolling" blackout. No thanks.

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General Codsworth 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Would it be possible to heat pump-ify the water air conditioner idea and bring a quantity of water nearly to a boil to use it as active heating in addition to freezing for active cooling? So long as everything in the system can handle the heat difference of going from -1 degrees to 99 degrees Celsius, a reversible heat pump and regular radiator system could allow for a lot of storage in a decent amount of water. I suppose retrofitting would be a challenge for it. I know the house my mom lives in would have trouble fitting it in anywhere. Maybe some redoing of the pipes could allow it on top of the water heater next to the air handler?

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Logan Mancuso 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

This is very interesting, I always just read the news and steered away from it but I'm going to look more into this. I love saving energy.

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Blaž Bohinc 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I've implemented this method of energy storage but with heat. In my country, we have high rate and low rate electricity. Low rate is from 10pm to 6am. And that's when I heat the flat. I kid you not. I've cut electricity expenses by more than a half. I can live with my temperature being 18.5-19 in the evening before I turn on the heating, because it's worth to have a chilly flat for a few hours than to pay twice the money for 2degrees difference.

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Alèxia 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

21:39 air conditioning tech is going to come full circle, as far as I remember blowing air over a block of ice was the earliest form of air conditioning in the 1800s

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Alèxia 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

2:10 the issue with shutting off air conditiioners is you never know if there's someone in that home who is sensitive to heat. Heat waves have killed a lot of people, especially seniors, and will only get worse as global heating continues

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Lee Byrd 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Fun fact about that kind of pricing: Apartment complexes may decide you can only make so much noise between so-and-so hours. Mine are 10PM and 6AM. Due to the fact that my washer, dryer, washing machine, and shower all make enough noise to be heard in adjacent apartments it's a small problem to run those during those hours. This kind of pricing, while pragmatic from an energy consumption standpoint, is a bit bothersome if you're already cash-strapped and living in a collective housing situation – as most cash-strapped individuals do.

Something to consider my good man! Cheers!

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E Charles Wright 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I live in Puget Sound region of Washington state in a 1940's vintage house with a basement…. no air conditioner… and my heat does not come on if temperature is 58 degrees or more, most of year no heating needed… rain and overcast in Winter keeps out side temperatures about rain temps… mid 40's… in summer the basement tends to stay cooler ground temps… power outages are mostly during storms… house not compatible with roof mounted Solar… most of our power is hydro… a little from wind farms… hydrocarbon is almost gone…

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Rachel Lynn 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Why do you need to say Celsius❓

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winsause555 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

1:00 hey that's my grid

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C. O. 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

My area does not allow tiered rates and my summer hits over 100°.

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Usman Ullah Asif 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Is it feasible to have a 50 or 100-gallon water tank and chill or warm the water and then use that for house needs given that your house has poor insulation and need to do it also in the middle of the day?

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TareanSmiley 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

One big problem with bulk storage methods is the fact that the transfer of energy is not 100% efficient. Pushing into a storage medium and then out again has always had a cost, you lose power this way. When it comes to grid sized applications you can see the problem here: you're using more electricity overall. More dinosaur juice has to be burnt. Our throttle in the case of demand is usually coal, or nuclear depending on the country you live in. The throttle is where our focus needs to be. We either use less, or use a more efficient throttle like nuclear power.

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Sean Beyer 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

If the power company want to rase my temps remotely I will connect 3 wires together and bypass that

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Chris Minnoy 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Many things can be used to store/save energy. When you run your hot water boiler during the night, but run your dishwasher during the day, it makes sense to use the hot water from your boiler to feed your dishwasher. The dishwasher will use less power during expensive hours, and you will shift load to the night tarrif. And there are many more examples.

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Quin Trapnell 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Clever and helpful. If and when solar produces the majority of our power I imagine you do the opposite.

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specer73 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Hi !
As always it was super interesting. I'm wondering if something like a nest thermostat can take into account the cheapest hour of the day ? I'm living in France and I have 3 time periods where it is cheapest : 3am30 to 7am, 1pm to 4 pm and 9pm to 10pm30.
I would like to use you technique but getting a smart thermostat involved to go a step further. If a thermostat know the storage capacity of the house + the insulation + the weather, it should be able to decide "I don't need to start run the heat pump at 3am30, I can wait till 5am. Any idea if it's possible ? Or it's better to do a try and repeat approach ?

Last question: how are you dealing with entering and getting outside of your home without losing too much house storage ? Is your entry in a dedicated room ?

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Dale Jakes 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I can't get over the casual inclusion of a solar panel being installed with the use of an exosuit

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irishvoyageur 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I’ve been doing this with a whole house fan installed in our attic for the past 35 years. This only works during period when the outside humidity levels are not excessive. I typically drop the air temps in the house to about 62-65 degrees at night. This will really cut or eliminate cooling demand during hot weather. I learned this technique from my parents who lived in a 100-year old home.

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GBmike 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

In the UK some energy providers will actually pay you to take load off the grid

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Pellervo Kaskinen 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

As to thermal storage — some medieval churches with their 1 meter+ walls and other structures have all along utilized it! On the other hand, recently I have seen articles praising the benefits of WHITE roofing. Well, what else is new? We got a white roofing when our R&D building was built around 1975 just to reduce the air conditioning need. And when my home roof was redone, I wanted as light (gray) slates as available. All for the same idea of thermal management.

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Michael Szmadzinski 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I'm just back to copy down your thermostat schedule at 9:33

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Saeed Hossain 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

totally a thermal battery, I'd love to see you make a chiller from your chest freezer

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Iain Slade 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

Excellent Observations, well presented. Just like all your videos.

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deshpremi 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I follow this somewhat using natural cooling. Where I live it's really cold at night especially early morning and hot during the day. So while at night we like to sleep warm I open few windows up to cool off the home from natural outside cold temperatures by 4-5 am except bedrooms. Continue this till about 9-10 am when again it starts to heat up then put on the drapes and close windows to prevent hot outside air heating up inside home. Then enjoy colder insides for long time till evening and then repeat the cycle.

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Jabberwockybird 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

For colder days, logs are like batteries. 🪵🪵🪵The sun stores energy in the wood. Get a fireplace or wood stove and release the energy when needed.

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Jabberwockybird 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

I already turn off cooling at times, but I hadn't thought of overcooling at night.

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Someoneelse 21/12/2021 - 6:53 Chiều

In Sweden where we often have waterfilled-radiators in every room, it is popular to install "accumulator-tanks" on the system.
Especially if you burn wood, they "recharge" when you are feeding the fire, and discharge the heat while you sleep/work.
My parents has 2 tanks, they keep the house warm for a couple of days even when it is -20c outside.
They also have electric heating elements in the tanks, on a timer, to charge the tanks in the night and not run during the day if they are gone for a prolonged time. (heat battery)
The house was also built in the 50's, so the pipes for the heating is beefy enough to make the water self cirkulating from the basement where the heater is to the 2 floors above. ( there is a ciculating pump in the system though )
They had a prolonged power outage due to a winter storm taking out the grid, but stayed warm and toasty anyway, and only started up a generator once a day to charge their laptops/phones and make food and coffe

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